i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. Coupled that with the low first gear of the five speed, it ought to create some real traction problems. Need some Cam Advice! | Chevy Tri Five Forum In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. As usual, Marc (aka Master) is correct. But it is a piece of good news for your engine. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. LSA is a result of valve timing events. Many later model engines use wide lobe separation angles to reduce overlap for idle quality and fuel economy. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? - Don Terrill's Speed Another difference between the two involves the power curve. " - Voltaire. But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got!" Tight lobe separations, such as 108 or shorter, will cause the peak torque to build earlier in the RPM range and peak-out in a short amount of . by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post Full text of "Pediatric Books" Again this is dependent on your shift rpm and assuming you truly have 14-1 compression. It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. Depending on the engine combination, the opposite results can occur. Defining Lobe Center - Clay Smith Cams by mike thompson Tue May 13, 2003 4:03 am, Post by Kdub Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm, Post The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. Camshaft Lobe Separation Angle | Classic Car Restoration Club I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. Effect Of Changes In Cam Timing And Lobe Separation Angle - COMP Cams This has been my long time understanding! The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. its got a 3.73 posi and the Stock 4 speed with a very low 3.42 1st gear. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. Save Share. Icao Annex 10 Aeronauticaltelecommunicationsvolumeiv-Surveillanc I think that cam had 110 lobe sep. Im loking at a summit cam with close to the same lift and duration #s but 114 lobe sep. A narrower lobe separation angle can provide less power but can also lead to less wear. 108 vs 112 lobe seperation - Shoptalkforums.com So, sit tight back and explore. With the first cam loaded in the engine (the 101 LSA) Westech's Steve Brul made three dyno pulls, the average of which was saved to compare to the next cam. Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. I forgot to add that poor vacuum is not much of a concern to me because I have no power accessories. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. 106 LSA: You can see an increasing EGR effect at 106 LSA. It may not display this or other websites correctly. CAMSHAFT guys, explain lobe centers to me | The H.A.M.B. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. = Extremely Tight . According to the Motortrend, LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) is a wonderful approximation of the operation of the engine because it takes into account the relative time of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) and the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) concerning each other.Above mentioned sequential activities allow LSA to be an accurate representation of the operation of the engine. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. I think you are asking a lot of a cam . When boost or nitrous are introduced, and engine builders contemplate choices between single-, dual- or reverse-pattern camshafts then the discussion gets muchmore technical. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. For Example: A 110-degree lobe separation means that the peak opening points of the Intake and Exhaust lobes is 110 degrees apart. 106 or 110 lobe seperation | Team Chevelle Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. With a 108 degree lobe center, a cam will have a rougher idle and produce less vacuum due to more overlap. Equipped with the 120-degree (LSA) cam, the hybrid stroker produced 570 hp at 6,200 rpm and 535 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm. I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. An RV or towing camshaft, which is considered a mild performance or an economy cam, will often have a narrower LSA, between 112 and 114 degrees. Disorganization of language and working memory systems in frontal Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. It idles very well at 650 rpm with a nice lope and runs strong. LSA is a way of summing up the relative timing of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) to the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) in relation to each other, and it's a great approximation of how the engine will operate. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. Some of the confusion on this subject comes from what the meaning of "bottom" and "top" is to the speaker, I suppose. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes, says Eric Bolander of Erson Cams. What happens when you change ONLY. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. Really wide lobe separation angles are used in boosted applications. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. This cam split the difference between the 101 and 113 down the middle, and in theory should have walked the line between the results of the last two tests in every waywhich it did. Lobe Separation or Lobe Centers is another way of expressing the Valve Overlap, which was the term formerly used by cam manufacturers before industry standard verbiage changed. It a 355. thanks in advance. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. But, you may find it quite shocking that the piston-to-valve clearances decreasing rate raises the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. 02 The 402-inch stroker short-block combined an aluminum LS2 block with a 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. Tests 2 and 3 meant dissecting the motor on the dyno to get the old cam out. After the next three pulls, it was clear the 113 cam was way down on low-end torque. Classic Inlines - How to Select a Cam Profile - FordSix Performance Forum The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. turbo camshafts lobe centers and lobe separation Going from a 110 to 112 lobe separtaion - Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum The lobe separation angle is a comprise of what the engine needs depending on the compression, combustion chamber, rpm, engine size, head volume, and many, many other variables. Good luck. - Sheryl Crow. Mike Magda is a veteran automotive writer with credits in publications such as Racecar Engineering, Hot Rod, Engine Technology International, Motor Trend, Automobile, Automotive Testing Technology and Professional Motorsport World. Increased Effective Connectivity of the Left Parietal Lobe During Aug 20, 2006. The exhaust has an opening even and a closing event. Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. . I just installed a Comp Cams XE262 in a 9:1 350 with stock iron heads. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. 110 vs. 112 lobe seperarion on a cam - Chevy Message Forum It is the angle that separates the intake and exhaust lobe for a particular cylinder, and is measured in camshaft degrees. somthing to that aspect. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. Thanks. 11 Doing LS cam swaps on the engine dyno is a breeze, each taking less than 1 hour. Lobe sepsration is an advanced description for overlap.If you take a cam on a 112,and grind it on a 108,you add more overlap,the time the valves are both open.Narrower lobe centers mean more low end and midrange torque,along with a peakier powerband,and a slightly rougher idle.Tradeoffs are sensitivity to octane ratings,total timing, and air fuel ratio.A lot to swallow I know,hope this helps you. A forum community dedicated to Ford performance owners and enthusiasts. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. A mobile functional near-infrared spectroscopy (fNIRS) was used to record cerebral oxygenation signals in the left prefrontal cortex (LPFC), right prefrontal cortex (RPFC), left parietal lobe (LPL), and right parietal lobe (RPL) and analyze the EC of the cerebral cortex. The 108 LSA offered the lowest idle vacuum of the three (down 4 inches). I just bought a 86b Webcam and Im using 1.5's. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. 114 lsa cam sound clips | LS1LT1 Forum 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . I believe you have got the idea of what you were seeking. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. 106 lobe sep. in a street car. | NastyZ28.com 112-110 Deg. Lobe Separation Angle. - 332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum . Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. It also depends on what the vehicle will be used for and if economy and vacuum are important. Lobe Separation Angle "LSA " | Yellow Bullet Forums Once more the engine came apart to install the third test cam, a 107 LSA. Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. The absence of engine knocking ensures that your car engine is reasonably combusting the fuel. from the intake to the exhaust and vise-versa.Thats why a performance cam will usually have a rougher idle than a stock one. by Marc Mon May 12, 2003 11:38 am, Post by ANT Tue May 13, 2003 1:08 pm, Post by flat4racer17 Tue May 13, 2003 9:12 pm, Post by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post 01 Choosing the right lobe separation angle for your LS cam shouldn't cause anxiety. You must log in or register to reply here. Thanks for the replies so far. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. thanks. What Is the SBC Header Bolt Torque? A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. But it also has a lot of lobe separation. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. The lower the lobe seperation,, ie. I had a 110 cam in my beetle and I didn't like it-the bottom end was doggy. Howards Cam Vs Comp Cam: Which Is The Best Option For You? So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. Mailbag: Camshaft Lobe Separation, Nitrous Oxide & How They Relate Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! Hopefully it turns out great. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? Also If you go with 112 lobe centers, you create less valve overlap which will increase your compretion. Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression Adding an aftermarket cam to an otherwise stock engine can boost output by 40-60 hp (or more) with no other changes (except possibly a valvespring upgrade). Maybe even 114. I wouldn't assume 4 links fuel requirements will mirror yours at all. See all 14 photos 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree). The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. Things like idle vacuum, fuel economy, and tuning all factor into picking the right cam. A cam with a tighter LSA will require a looser torque converter, may not be able to run vacuum-assisted brakes, and doesn't play nice with fuel injection. Widening their separation angle helps increase upper rpm power output. Post . A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. As a result, a wider valve opening system with no overlapping allows more oil to fall through the oil inlet. I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. Engine knocking generally occurs when the burning of the fuel by the engine is uneven. 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. LSA helps determine the cam's behavior; you can take a given set of lift and duration figures, change the LSA, and get cams with vastly different characteristics. The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. To reiterate another point, I realize that wider LSAs tend to broaden the power band, but for a car I would like to bracket race a bit, as well as enjoy on the street, I was told that a narrower LSA will help the car accelerate at a faster rate. Known as "The Gladiator" around Westech Performance, this Dart SHP blockbased, 370ci, small-block Chevy has made thousands of dyno pulls testing all manner of heads, intakes, cams, and every other crazy thing us magazine folk have coerced Westech's Steve Brul to bolt to it. Now here is where it gets tricky. Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. by lazaris Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm, Post dur. . Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. 238/248 duration, 300/310 adv. Come join the discussion about restoration, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! This is one of the many reasons why Clay Smith Cams always recommends degreeing your camshaft in using the Lobe Center Method. 110 for sure. 106 Lobe Separation Angle | The De Tomaso Forums Attenuation of Seizures, Cognitive Deficits, and Brain Histopathology 108 Lobe Separation These are my motors specs 1979 - 347 Stroker 10:1 Compression Holley 670 Street Avenger or a Holley 650 (I have both) Roush 200 Cylinder Heads (minor head work) 1.6 Roller Rockers Shorty BBK Headers 373 Rear End 5 Speed Transmission Cross Gap Intake (Power Band 1500-6500) FlowMaster Dual Exhaust (of course no Cats) MSD 6Al VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. such as 290 @.050? The article was called "Separation of Power" and they tested 5 cams ranged from 106 to 114 LSA. I have 108 for LSA and my headlights take awhile to go up when the car is idling. Well, it is quite a natural event that you may not find the lope separation angle mentioned at the engine body. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -.